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John Carver Letters to the Editor Nov. That would be altruistic punishment. Altruistic punishment, Fehr and Gachter reasoned, might just be the spark that makes groups of unrelated strangers co-operate. To test this they created a co-operation game played by constantly shifting groups of volunteers, who never meet — they played the game from a computer in a private booth. The volunteers played for real money, which they knew they would take away at the end of the experiment. On each round of the game each player received 20 credits, and could choose to contribute up to this amount to a group project.
Under the rules of the game, the best collective outcome would be if everyone put in all their credits, and then each player would get back more than they put in.
In this scenario what happened looked like a textbook case of the kind of social collapse the free rider problem warns of. On each successive turn of the game, the average amount contributed by players went down and down. Everybody realised that they could get the benefit of the collective pot without the cost of contributing. Even those who started out contributing a large proportion of their credits soon found out that not everybody else was doing the same. And once you see this it's easy to stop chipping in yourself — nobody wants to be the sucker.
A simple addition to the rules reversed this collapse of co-operation, and that was the introduction of altruistic punishment. Fehr and Gachter allowed players to fine other players credits, at a cost to themselves. This is true altruistic punishment because the groups change after each round, and the players are anonymous. There may have been no direct benefit to fining other players, but players fined often and they fined hard — and, as you'd expect, they chose to fine other players who hadn't chipped in on that round.
The effect on cooperation was electric. And there the one that's gonna come off second best. Regards, the general motorist. I hit a cyclist once, just by opening my car door when parked. Was a total accident, but he was in my blind spot. He flew straight into my door.
That last one wasn't a text, it's actually a Facebook comment by a man who was found guilty this week of manslaughter. In , Ben Smith was on a motorbike and sped past a year-old man cycling with friends on a highway north of Sydney. The man came off his bicycle and suffered fatal head injuries. Someone who witnessed the event confronted Smith in a cafe afterward. That's an extreme example, but hatred towards cyclists is common enough.
There's even an anti-cyclist Facebook page in Brisbane, where members post threats against the "road toads", "peddling terrorists", "pedalphiles", and "lycra-wearing latte set". To help us understand the root causes of cyclist hatred, Hack got in touch with Matthew Beck, a University of Sydney senior lecturer in infrastructure who has a particular interest in cycling and why it makes car drivers so angry. Then there's the money cyclists pay in fines, which was dramatically bumped up in New South Wales in March last year.
That's more than seven times the value of fines issued to cyclists in the financial year. When the fines were bumped up in March , a penalty was also introduced for motorists who don't leave enough space when passing cyclists.
Note: this figure doesn't include motorists who have been fined for reckless or dangerous driving, which could include passing too close to a cyclist.
Cyclists are the only road users who don't need a license or even to know the road rules. It's a visceral reaction to someone they see as breaking the rules. My point is that these complaints and more could also apply to motorists, but you don't get the "why do people dislike motorists?
Have you read this thread which ostensibly isn't even about attitudes to motorists!! But that's the point entirely, surely? That cyclists are singled out, and the bad behaviour of individuals is applied to the group as a whole.
You've made the point that, to Mr Angry BMW Driver, the bad behaviour of some cyclists only reinforces their preconception and helps nobody. It clearly hasn't come about as a result of rational thought, or an objective assessment of the available evidence. The BBC article referenced above seems closest to an understanding of this phenomenon. We've created a car-centric society into which bikes just don't fit. By short-cutting the perceived "rules" i. They're therefore expected to conform i.
This is why official campaigns to emphasise high viz and helmets are mostly useless, they only serve to highlight cyclist's "otherness". This is why I've often argument that learning to drive should include a mandatory period of road cycling, so new drivers have a bit more empathy with others on the road. But I suspect Mr Angry in his BMW does notice transgressions from his perspective of other drivers - which is why he'll park two meters from their rear bumper in the outside lane of the motorway.
Mr Angry is a tosspot to everyone. That's perhaps right but I don't think shouting at motorists and telling them how terrible they are is the way to do that. For the foreseeable future we need widespread, high-speed vehicle transport if we want our economy to function. There is no practicable way of mixing that safely with cycling if the same space is used for both. We need, where possible to separate the two. This requires some compromise from both groups - less road space for cars, particularly in towns, and also an acknowledge from cyclists that they won't be able to use roadspace designated for high speed cars entirely freely because of the congestion and delays this causes.
Switzerland, Denmark the Netherlands etc do this well. It's noticeable in Switzerland most main roads have parallel small roads that may have the odd car on but are widely used by cyclists, roller-skaters etc for exercise too. This is just it would be so easy to dislike cyclists Anyone that has the misfortune to hit a cyclist that is using this as a shoddy justification for reckless risk taking will suffer a considerable amount of mental anguish and stress.
No road user should be taking any silly chances that risk involving anyone else in an accident. Perhaps Mr. No, but it's also the perfectly understandable reaction of someone who's just had somebody else play Russian roulette with their life. Quite apart from the direct benefit of reducing the likelihood of bikes and motor vehicles tangling, cycling is also normalised and there's therefore a much greater empathy between users of different vehicles with less of a tendency to cast them in groups.
Passing close to a bike You seem to be falling into the common trap of assuming that near misses that don't have the potential to hurt you cannot deeply scare you.
We're not all as blase about the safety of others as you assume, a near miss with a vulnerable road user who has just done something really stupid will seriously frighten most drivers. Have you really never had the misfortune to have someone step off the kerb in front of you when driving?
We could easily do this in the UK. Most towns have parallel roads that end up in the same place. Close them off to through traffic and turn them into cycle paths. The downside is, the side roads are not very visible to road users and potential cyclists so people still think that cycling is dangerous and not many people do it, even though the cycle paths are chok full of cyclists.
It's all very well telling people not to shout at motorists when they have just had a near miss, and the vast majority of cyclists would absolutely agree with you when they are cosily sat on the sofa at home. It is a very different ballgame when something has just happened and the adrenaline is surging FWIW I totally agree that bad cycling or walking can cause near misses that can be pretty scary for drivers, and this is definitely a bad thing. Risks being much higher when you drive.
I do both. I'd say it's a but silly to say "drivers" - clearly not all or even most drivers think like this, but I think there's plenty that do. What is it about my post suggests to you that I am? Isn't the licence there to ensure that people meet a required skill level to drive the relevant vehicle? All road users have the same essential responsibilities in that they are expected to behave in a fashion that doesn't put themselves or others in danger.
On top of that, all road users are expected to meet certain criteria with regards to following the Highway Code, etc. When I was a nipper many, many years ago , we all did our Cycling Proficiency Test, to learn how to ride safely, including learning the Highway Code.
Does anyone do this anymore? Does it still exist? But still, that sounds like failing to qualify what they mean by "drivers" rather than a straw man. It seems obvious to me that they don't mean all or most becuase that woul dbe absurd. This doesn't make sense to me.
We often place greater responsibilities on people dealing with larger risks. This is why there's different laws inc re respnsibility for driving and cycling. People taking others rock climbing or flying or paragliding have more responsibility placed on them than people taking a guided tour of a city. As a motorist and a cyclist this is the where I think people on the motorist side of the debate are wrong - when you drive you have a much greater responsibility than when you cycle.
On the cylist side, I think we can be self rightious, generally annoying and do ourselves no favours by safely flaunting the rules of the road. The lack of qualification implies the majority rather than the minority of drivers, which is a typical journalistic licence.
You chose to interpret it as a minority, but the implication is anything but that. The strawman is what all these drivers are supposed to be motivated by based on the author's own prejudices.
I don't think so - I think its actually a very low number - but then thats my opinion based on what I observe. Other people seem to find cyclist haters at every turn. There are a lot of drivers. Are you looking amongst your social circle or looking on the internet in places that attracts people with those feelings?
Its like going to a hospital brain injury ward to find out if there are a lot of cyclists getting brain injuries. Yes, I'd choose to give him the benefit of the doubt or maybe just think he's wrong on the numbers, and then think about what he's got to say as regards the people that do actually think like that.
I cycle one or two times a week if I can. Will probably do a km round trip commute to work tomorrow. Why do you ask? I don't doubt one or two people do think that way towards cyclists, but if its one or two its in the noise.
Its irrelevant. Punishment passes are unfortunately less rare and plain dangerous driving more common still. By definition, "these sort of people" ARE exactly the sort of people that contribute to these articles, so its a self selecting group. Its bound to be the gob shites you hear on line rather than the old granny down the road. To put any statistical relevance on it is pretty idiotic. I ask because you think this is tiny minority view. It's a view I've come across reasonably often, more when Iived in London.
Cycling friends have come accross it too, so I just thought that you might think it's so low because you don't cycle. According to a very unscientific survey a quarter think cyclists should pay road tax. I'd call it a significant minority. There are many basic responsibilities in life that aren't the subject of legislation or licencing. It isn't one or two people as you are suggesting, or even a tiny minority.
Some of these articles get thousands of comments. I'm not even that regular a cyclist, but could tell you multiple stories or comments from motorists. All the evidence points to it being a significant enough issue for it to be a problem. There is a huge difference between thinking that someone should pay road tax and believing that the fact that it isnt currently required means that they have less rights than those who are taxed.
Ignorance and stupidity. However, such statements are often coupled with abuse that would suggest dislike. Like I wrote upthread, the three vehicles that passed me on Sunday were just idiots their behaviour had nothing to do with me being out on the road.
I would say that when commuting most days I get a deliberate close pass more than once a week, and passes that are closer than they should be more than ten a week.
I had a lovely if slow 46km ride in today. Everyone, be it cars, lorries or vans was courteous, waited for safe overtaking spots, left plenty of room and 'flashed' me across busy traffic streams. Lovely I've had many similar experiences, and just off for a cycle myself now. I can't remember the specific poll that showed this though?
Your Name:. Email Address: you will also be emailed a Cc: [carbon copy] of this message. The route has been tried in the past by the likes of John Dunne but the overhanging groove held out until May when Craig made the first Why do people non cyclists dislike cyclists?
New Topic Reply to Topic. This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings. The Potato 20 Apr Im a motorist 22k miles a year and a cyclist 2k miles a year I dont understand why there is such a dislike hatred?
Post edited at Heartinthe highlands 20 Apr In reply to The Potato: Because they hate the effortless grace as we silently glide across smooth tarmac, keeping ourselves fit, enjoying the views dressed in fashionable lycra. Or because they think we are smug. In reply to The Potato: Not all cyclists!
In reply to The Potato: I was actually thinking about this last night. Greylag 20 Apr In reply to The Potato: Because they cycle 2 a breast when it's unnecessary although legal it is frustrating and they slow me down for 30 seconds of my life. Sits back and waits for ridicule. JimHolmes69 20 Apr In reply to The Potato: Filtering, legal and it makes them rage.
In reply to The Potato: Lots of reasons, the main one being the delay to their journey. In reply to The Potato: I was musing about this recently too. Yes, I do cycle! Dave the Rave 20 Apr In reply to The Potato: I drive daily with a cyclist hater, and on questioning most of it is fear of how to get past them.
She has mentioned the road tax bit and been put right. Theres more cars now and the mobile phone useage gives me the willies. Deadeye 20 Apr In reply to The Potato: Road tax.
GrahamD 20 Apr In reply to The Potato: Bit of a strawman there! In reply to The Potato: The thing is that most cyclist are car owners and therefore pay road tax and I I pointed out to a guy training at my workplace the other day, bikes take up an awful lot less space than cars so in effect he should be happy. He also made a statement that riding two abreast was illegal Tobes 20 Apr In reply to The Potato: I drive and ride.
In reply to The Potato: Some cyclists are quite shouty and self-righteous while cycling. I know I am. LastBoyScout 20 Apr In reply to The Potato: Cycled to work yesterday and one of my colleagues actually told me she hates cyclists! Her reasoning being that she hates being held up by them when she's out in her car.
In reply to Tobes: agreed I wont wave a driver on, but I will put my hand out to warn not to overtake if I can see or hear a car coming which they might not be able to. In reply to Tobes: I ride a lot of country lanes and wave drivers through when they are waiting behind me and I can see the road ahead is clear. In reply to The Potato: Well, my dislike of cyclists started as a young adult when I was almost ran over by them a couple of times crossing the road, when they'd ran a red light.
In reply to abr Also ride and drive on country roads. Chris Harris 20 Apr In reply to Tobes: I can only speak for myself and my intent, it all comes in to the same bracket for me Timmd 20 Apr In reply to The Potato: I rode out to the crag on Wednesday 22 miles around and up until almost the end I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the driving around me with no close passes and no cars pulling out at me.
In reply to Tobes: I know that car drivers have to leave a reasonable gap when overtaking, but some car drivers overtake with too much emphasis on this; thereby making more of the procedure. Enough comments Rob. Lusk 21 Apr In reply to The Potato: I hate cyclists because now and again they make me FactorXXX 21 Apr In reply to The Potato: There is undoubtedly a small idiotic number of motorists that quite literally hate cyclists.
Toccata 21 Apr In reply to The Potato: Given that travel is inherently stressful for most it is easy to see why people look for easy targets to vent anger. DaveHK 21 Apr DancingOnRock 21 Apr In reply to The Potato: Ah. Get over yourself. You just happen to be a cyclist. Basil 21 Apr In reply to The Potato: People dislike cyclists due to Trangia 21 Apr In reply to The Potato: I am partially deaf and I hate cyclists who come up behind me without using their bells well before they reach me.
In reply to The Potato: I get angry when I see a lovely lycra clad bottom on a slim athletic body That's why I hate cyclists. In reply to mountainbagger: I get that from fellers like you when I go out in my fluorescent pink winter top.
In reply to Dax H: "the main one being the delay to their journey" - In reply to The Potato: Last week I had to take to the verge when a knob driving a Dingwall Tyres van decided he could overtake me on a long straight with a car coming towards us. Ciro 21 Apr In reply to wintertree: Interesting that you're getting so many down-votes.
Hugo First 21 Apr In reply to Trangia: Do you mean hate? Do you really hate me? In reply to Hugo First: I have also always gone with a cheery 'hello' or 'just passing on your right' etc. In reply to gravy: Hmmm. NorthernGrit 21 Apr In reply to timjones: The point still stands.
In reply to The Potato: This thread is just full of cyclists. Yanis Nayu 21 Apr In reply to scope: Or by fat arsed motorists. In reply to Trangia: Happy days???? In reply to 1philjones1: They most likely do all drive too, but you've missed the point. Ghastly Rubberfeet 21 Apr In reply to scope: I take it that you are a cyclist then? Plenty of comments here from drivers too. In reply to Hugo First: Thank you, glad to read that If someone gets arsey tell them to be thankful that they could hear your bell, because some people can't hear much at all In reply to NorthernGrit: Cyclists must have different physical properties to the pedestrians I hit at 20mph then.
In reply to The Potato: I got taken out by a hit and run driver two weeks ago. My views: - It's an entitlement thing - I am a driver and I am entitled to make swift progress. In reply to timjones: Yes cyclists occasionally do dim things but they are risking their own lives.
In reply to timjones: "The driver wouldn't have been injured but they would have been subjected to a lot of stress and inconvenience. It's not that difficult. In reply to The Potato: Because they get in the way of drivers and hold them up until they can pass and that is frustrating. Fergal 21 Apr In reply to The Potato: Why do europeans love and respect cyclists, discuss.
Chris the Tall 21 Apr In reply to timjones: Just give bikes a more time and space even if they are ridden by dimwits. In reply to The Potato: Car drivers who don't ride a bike often think that things cyclists do in the name of self preservation we are actually doing just to be awkward and difficult and because we can. And if you dont know why it is being done then its understandably frustrating Post edited at In reply to The Potato: I think one thing may be that passing a cyclist demands more attention and stress for a driver than just pootling up the road.
FactorXXX 22 Apr In reply to r0x0r. DancingOnRock 22 Apr Ciro 22 Apr In reply to tehmarks: My dislike of motorists started when one opened a door on me when I was 11 and sent me to a and e. JimR 22 Apr In reply to blackmountainbiker: there are some complete idiots out there, I was grazed by a car mirror on friday when going through a country village I always ride considerately for other road users as I also do a lot of miles driving as well , I flung up my hand to protest.
In reply to DancingOnRock: And it only applies if you use your vehicle on the road. Were you equally vociferous when people called the community charge a poll tax? In reply to timjones: No, it only applies if you pollute the atmosphere by using your vehicle on a road. In reply to 1philjones1: But it doesn't apply if you pollute by using the same vehicle off road. It's a widely used term that makes a lot of sense.
In reply to 1philjones1: I'm sure that most of the drivers that use the term do their absolute best to keep all road users safe during their journeys. In reply to timjones: Really? In reply to 1philjones1: It's a tiny minority of motorists. I'd say that its also a tiny minority of cyclists that are oversensitive about it. Most cyclists and motorists just get on with the business of peacefully coexistence.
In reply to FactorXXX: But it seems for many motorists that bad cyclist is used to represent all cyclists, but the good cyclist isn't. ClimberEd 22 Apr In reply to timjones: Exactly.
Including one peloton of around 14 riders all riding in pairs apart from one bloke who for reasons known only to himself was riding 3 abreast and weaving across the road that was about 5 mins before the white van came past I saw no dead or injured cyclists in the gutter. Stereotyping people is incredibly lazy.
In reply to wintertree If someone is getting frantic about waving you through, it probably means they're afraid of the tin box behind them - which is somewhat understandable given the behaviour of some of the arseholes on the road - so rather than get miffed, give them a friendly wave after you do go past.
C Witter 22 Apr In reply to The Potato: I think the fundamental reason is that cities and road systems have been redesigned since around the mid-twentieth century with driving as the dominant form of transport. Trangia 22 Apr In reply to The Potato: Just been chatting to one of my neighbours who has come home from a few days in London.
Neighbour reported it to the police who were clearly not interested. At the moment he is in a "hate cyclist" mood Yanis Nayu 22 Apr In reply to DancingOnRock: Except it doesn't apply to many vehicles. In reply to Yanis Nayu: It applies to all motorised vehicles. In reply to MG: The same applies to motorists, but with a hugely enhanced risk to others.
In reply to Yanis Nayu: Definitely applies to motorists who: - nearly always exceed the speed limit - generally can't be bother to or don't know how to indicate - don't use their mirrors properly - jump red lights all the time - drive too close, especially in the wet None of the above would be so common if there was a bloody great spike sticking out of the middle of the steering wheel on cars.
In reply to gravy: See my third point. In reply to MG: So people moaning about cyclists who tend not to harm others is fine, while cyclists moaning about drivers who kill hundreds a year is smug?
In reply to Yanis Nayu: Where are you getting that? Eric9Points 22 Apr In reply to The Potato: I don't have anything against cyclists but, like many people, I dislike inconsiderate and incompetent road users.
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